Rebellious Sobriety

Interviews, Podcasts, Sobriety

September 5, 2022

My brother Jay may not be a mom, but he is sober and he does have a life, so he fits two-thirds of my podcast criteria!

Today, I’m joined by Jay for a banter-filled conversation about growing up around drinking culture, the pursuit of healthy aging, and how he made his choice to step away from alcohol. 

Interested in more banter from me and my bro? Check out our politics and pop culture podcast 
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If you’re looking for a community of wonderful sober moms to support you while you build your own sober life, join us inside The Sober Mom Life Facebook group


Rebellious Sobriety with Jay Knower

Speaker 1 (00:00):

Why are we doing an ad again

Speaker 2 (00:01):

So that we can tell people about brand new information, a pop culture and political podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:07):

Say it in a way that doesn’t sound like game show host.

Speaker 2 (00:10):

Okay. Do you wanna be in a room of overeducated, douche bags and feel comfortable? Brand new information is for you.

Speaker 1 (00:16):

What’s it gonna take to put you in this podcast today? We have brand new information on sale for free, free, wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:25):

Yeah. We might not break the political pop culture news of

Speaker 1 (00:28):

The week, but we put it right back together for you. That’s

Speaker 2 (00:31):

Right. Listen, wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

Hi, welcome to the sober mom life podcast. I’m your host, Suzanne of my kind of sweet and the sober mom life on Instagram. If you are a mama who has questioned your relationship with alcohol at times, if you’re wondering if maybe it’s making motherhood harder, this is for you. I will be having candid, honest, funny conversations with other moms who have also thought, Hmm, maybe motherhood is better without alcohol. Is it possible? We’ll chat. And we’ll talk about all things sobriety and how we’ve found freedom in sobriety. I don’t consider myself an alcoholic. You don’t have to either, and maybe life is brighter without alcohol. I hope you will join us on this journey. And I’m so excited to get started.

Speaker 1 (01:35):

Am I in the wrong place?

Speaker 2 (01:37):

<laugh> what are you doing over here? You guys, I have my brother,

Speaker 1 (01:41):

I cook the wrong link. I’ll just show myself out.

Speaker 2 (01:45):

<laugh> you’re in the wrong studio. I have my brother Jay. And, uh, this is an interesting episode because we just recorded our other podcast, which is brand new information. If you guys like pop culture politics, just overall shenanigans,

Speaker 1 (02:01):

Nineties nostalgia,

Speaker 2 (02:03):

Or big in the nineties were gen Xers, fully proudly gen Xers. So we talk about all of that over there. Go check it out, brand new information. And uh, we thought that we would do, we started talking. And the interesting thing about J the only interesting thing about <laugh>

Speaker 1 (02:23):

There’s so many, so many you could choose from.

Speaker 2 (02:26):

Yeah, well, no, well he’s sober and I don’t know if he calls himself sober. I don’t know. He’s got a weird thing with that, which okay, fine. We’re we’re not judgemental over here. We are judgmental over on brand new information. Oh, oh, wait. We’re not judgmental.

Speaker 1 (02:40):

Oh, okay. I’m making a note. Not judgmental. Got it.

Speaker 2 (02:44):

Not. Right. Right. So he’s not a mom. He does live a life and he’s sober. So you meet two thirds of the qualifications to be on the sober mom life.

Speaker 1 (02:55):

<laugh>, I’m married to a mom. Okay. And I have a mom, mom.

Speaker 2 (02:59):

<laugh> yeah, we have a mom. Okay. You’re getting closer. So it’s kind of funny how you are. I don’t know. Do we call you sober? Are you sober?

Speaker 1 (03:10):

Uh, right now, yes. I haven’t had anything to drink.

Speaker 2 (03:13):

Okay. That’s good.

Speaker 1 (03:14):

I’m currently sober. Uh, I don’t call myself sober. I haven’t had a drink since February.

Speaker 2 (03:21):


Speaker 1 (03:22):

It like, it didn’t start out as a thing. I just stopped drinking. And then I was like went a couple months and was like, huh, I haven’t had a drink. And then I went a couple more months and you know, now it’s six months later and like, I still haven’t had a drink. So I guess from a technical standpoint, I’m sober and have been, but I, I don’t really ascribe to like the cultural Milu of being sober.

Speaker 2 (03:50):

Yeah. Like what do you mean by that? What do you, what do you feel like that is?

Speaker 1 (03:54):

That’s a good question because I, I didn’t really feel like alcohol was a big part of my life before. Yeah. And it’s even a smaller part of my life now, which is zero. So I don’t feel like it was a big change necessarily where the implication was, you know, like if you’re sober now that meant prior you had, you know, a problem and you’ve, you know, done work and hard work to, to alleviate that problem.

Speaker 2 (04:22):

Right. That’s so interesting. Cuz I think that is changing. It’s like if you’re sober, then people think that you’re just forever like struggling with alcohol and you really have to work not to drink alcohol. Right. That’s what you think when you think of sober historically.

Speaker 1 (04:38):

Yeah. It’s like a, it’s a fundamental part of you, your personality and everything like you. Yeah. I mean, didn’t, we learn that, you know, alcoholism is a disease that you like never get better from you just do day, day to day. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know any of this. Like yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:55):

I don’t know how that’s changed. It’s so interesting. How like AA informs the sobriety culture and just how outside of AA would inform the sobriety culture. I think in AA they do say like you’re once an alcoholic, you’re always an alcoholic. You could be a recovering alcoholic, but you’re always gonna be in this battle against a alcohol that I never ever have seen myself in that like, I just, that sounds horrible to be in a battle with anything for my entire life. I am in a battle with sugar, but

Speaker 1 (05:30):

That’s a different podcast.

Speaker 2 (05:32):

Yeah. That’s just not me. And it’s definitely not you. But I think that even, I don’t know, like this would be interesting to talk about like how we grew up because we did see adults abusing alcohol and that did inform how we thought about alcohol and kind of how we drank it. I think,

Speaker 1 (05:50):

Yeah. My, I mean in high school I didn’t drink at all.

Speaker 2 (05:53):

Yeah. You were like a track star. You were a cross country star. You were all like, yeah, I was overachiever. I really didn’t drink in high. Oh no, I did. Cuz when you were in college, I was in high school and then you started drinking really in college and then I was still in high school. I

Speaker 1 (06:09):

Made up for it in college. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I mean also we went to college in Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 (06:15):

Yeah. That’s

Speaker 1 (06:16):

The thing. And it was a cultural thing. It was like, it was a, a community cultural thing and yeah. I didn’t feel like I ever, or we ever really had a problem necessarily, but it definitely affected my life. Like I heard somebody say that, drinking steals happiness from tomorrow. Yeah. And I definitely felt that. Like, I’ve definitely spent some gorgeous days being completely hungover.

Speaker 2 (06:45):

Yeah. Like I feel like we didn’t think it was a problem because everyone was doing it.

Speaker 1 (06:51):

Yeah. Which is like kind of like after school, special definition of a problem. Totally. Like, so everyone’s doing it. <laugh>

Speaker 2 (06:57):

Yeah. Like it was a problem, but it didn’t feel like one because we weren’t alone in it. Like you got banned from my campus. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (07:07):

Uh, I think it was a temporary ban. If we’re going to be honest, I think

Speaker 2 (07:11):

It was a one year ban <laugh>,

Speaker 1 (07:13):

Which has since lapsed. I’m a, I’m a I’m allowed on the green bay. <laugh> UW green bay campus now. So

Speaker 2 (07:21):

This is when I was a freshman and we had a party and Jay went to school just like an hour away from me. And Jay was there. He was the only one that was 21. And even though he didn’t bring the booze, he was the one who got blamed. Cuz he was the only one who was 21. And so

Speaker 1 (07:39):

We, yeah, I wouldn’t bring you. I was never that accommodating.

Speaker 2 (07:43):

No, you were never that nice. I

Speaker 1 (07:45):

Went and drank your booze.

Speaker 2 (07:47):

Yeah, exactly. I was like 18 supplying you booze. I was like, but then you get banned.

Speaker 1 (07:53):

I didn’t wanna spend the money. Yeah. And I was just like, I’m just a guy here. I’m

Speaker 2 (07:58):

Just, and then mom would be like, Hey, let’s go visit Suzanne. You’re like I can’t <laugh> I’m banned. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (08:04):

That was actually very convenient for me because then I didn’t have to go see my sister.

Speaker 2 (08:08):

Yeah. Oh darn I can’t. Yeah. Everyone in Wisconsin binge drank.

Speaker 1 (08:14):

Yeah. There was a bar in Oshkosh that I went to that prior to 5:00 PM. Like you could get free tap beers.

Speaker 2 (08:23):

Oh what?

Speaker 1 (08:25):

Yeah. It was free, free tap beers. And it was like the cheap stuff, but like, oh

Speaker 2 (08:29):

My God. Yeah. It

Speaker 1 (08:30):

Was free until five. So like I’d have class till three and then I’d go there and drink with my friends. And then it’s like five o’clock I’m drunk course. I’m gonna order yeah. Order food. And then I’m gonna start paying and then it’s 10 o’clock and then 12 o’clock and like, wow. I’ve been at the bar for seven hours. Spent way more than I thought I would.

Speaker 2 (08:50):

Oh my God.

Speaker 1 (08:50):

You know? And, but it was like, it was just cultural.

Speaker 2 (08:54):

Yeah. Totally. Like even just like in green bay we had a house parties and then you would pay like $5 for a solo cup at the door and then they would just have kegs and kegs and kegs. And you would just, I remember like power hour, like you would literally drink what’s that? I don’t remember if it was, you took a drink every minute of an hour or you drank a beer every hour. I can’t remember. I think it was, you took a drink every minute for an hour. It was something crazy, but it was just like what everyone did. Like no one was like, huh? Is this a problem?

Speaker 1 (09:30):

I never liked drinking games because they were always like overly elaborate. Yeah. And I was just like, I don’t need encouragement to drink. I can just sit here by myself in the corner at this party and drink <laugh>

Speaker 2 (09:45):

We had like so many card games, like Kings cup and I’d be like, wait, I forget. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:50):

But it was all like, oh you got the Jack of spades. That means that you lose and you lose every game. And like, like it was bizarre and arbitrary and confusing. It was

Speaker 2 (10:02):

Wicked. It was wicked WGO yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:04):

<laugh> you got the wicked WGO card.

Speaker 2 (10:07):

The, the cards have not been nice to me.

Speaker 1 (10:09):

No, the wheel, the wheel has not been nice to me, Joey. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:13):

I remember one drinking game was called Zoom Schwartz, BFI Leono <laugh> and you would go in a circle and you would say zoom and zoom would be like the person to your right. Would say something or zoom would be like the person you’re looking at. And then the person you’re looking at would have, have to say one of those and Schwartz was to your left and BFI Leono was to your right or one of those then you’d have to drink if you screwed it up. So it was crazy. It was like so hard. That was my college education.

Speaker 1 (10:43):

<laugh> <laugh> uh, but even, yeah. So, oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (10:48):

Yeah. I’m the host. Okay. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (10:49):

Yeah, but I was gonna talk about important things. Okay.

Speaker 2 (10:53):


Speaker 1 (10:53):

Me, but you know what, like just don’t let your guests talk. <laugh> like, is that just how it is that how it works over here? It’s just this.

Speaker 2 (11:00):

Yep. No. Okay. Tell me, go

Speaker 1 (11:02):

On. I’m going to be 45 years old this year.

Speaker 2 (11:07):

<laugh> okay.

Speaker 1 (11:08):

And I’m, I’m really active. I’m a runner, a climber. I do a lot of stuff in the mountains and I want to maintain some semblance of previous glory. I had related to my academic endeavors. And yeah, I’ve told you this before. I, I, I feel like I’m in a ship with a hole in the, in the bottom mm-hmm <affirmative> and that the hole in the bottom is age.

Speaker 2 (11:32):

That’s so depressing by way,

Speaker 1 (11:34):

The ship is going, it’s going like it’s going across the water and it, but it’s taking on, it’s taking on a lot of water through the hu because that like, and that hole just keeps getting bigger as I get older. So I’m at the point now where I’m just like looking on the ship and like anything that’s not entirely necessary to keep the ship moving forward. I’m throwing overboard. And like drinking is one of those things. Like I don’t, I want the ship to keep going at the same rate, even though it’s taking on water. So I’m throwing, drinking overboard. I don’t need, I don’t need it. I don’t wanna do it. Like a hangover affects me 10 times more than it used to. Oh,

Speaker 2 (12:13):

So brutal.

Speaker 1 (12:14):

So like it’s a rational cost benefit analysis. I just don’t get much out of it. Yeah. And like, it’s just easier not to

Speaker 2 (12:22):

Totally. I, I can totally see that. You’re like such a logical person that that makes sense that you’re like, oh right. This isn’t benefiting me in any way. So I’m gonna stop it. But I, I also have a different perspective of your drinking problem. No, I’m kidding. <laugh> not a

Speaker 1 (12:40):

<laugh> is mom here? Is this an intervention? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:43):

No, this is what we do over here. We just label people. <laugh> I think because we lost our dad like a year and a half ago. So March 20, 21. And it’s interesting how the event since losing dad really, because, right, right. After you, your drinking did ramp up a little bit, right?

Speaker 1 (13:06):

I mean maybe a little,

Speaker 2 (13:08):


Speaker 1 (13:10):

Yeah. Maybe a little I’d have a couple beers a night.

Speaker 2 (13:13):

Yeah. A couple beers a night. Maybe some scotch, maybe a little weed. You did try to take on the weed and then you were like, oh, this is making me paranoid

Speaker 1 (13:21):

As much as I’ve wanted to be like a pothead. Yeah. I’ve just never been able to make it happen because I’m too paranoid

Speaker 2 (13:27):

Because you’re a loser.

Speaker 1 (13:30):

So I’m a loser because I’m not a

Speaker 2 (13:32):

Pothead. Yeah. You haven’t been able to make it happen.

Speaker 1 (13:34):

Got it. Yeah. So that’s how things, things are over here, huh? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:38):

Yeah. See a lot. This is harsh. Remember what I said about no judgment. I take that away. <laugh> I take that back.

Speaker 1 (13:44):

The sober mom, life is tough, but fair. <laugh>

Speaker 2 (13:48):

Exactly. We call it like we see it. <laugh> no, I, I think that I have an episode on grief and sobriety and like staying sober during that time. And I think that I was just able to see how everyone around me was kind of turning to alcohol because we were so, I mean, it was just so hard. It was a hard loss. It, that whole like time period was so hard. And I, I remember like understanding it. I, I wasn’t judging like how could they do that? I’m like, no, of course, like, of course that’s what’s happening. It felt like that was the escape. It, the feelings of grief and of loss are so fucking hard. Hey, we can swear over here too, by the way. Right on they’re so fucking hard that it does feel like you almost can’t survive them. Like, it feels like I remember that grief was feeling like, holy shit, I, I don’t even know how, how I’m gonna get through this without some sort of escape. And I, I didn’t, I mean, I mean, I did get through it. I didn’t escape. Yeah. But I remember you’re drinking, ramping up a little bit and being like, yeah, like that, it just made sense.

Speaker 1 (14:55):

I don’t think I was drinking out of grief though. I did feel grief. I think I was drinking out of social anxiety because I’m, we’re hanging out with our like extended family.

Speaker 2 (15:03):

Oh really? Yeah. What about when you were home in New Hampshire?

Speaker 1 (15:06):

Oh yeah. That was grief <laugh> okay. It just to, for, and me, my dog and me <laugh> um, yeah, no, but like the, getting a bottle of whiskey with our cousins and everything, it felt like that was like how to deal with the social aspect of hanging out with people. I don’t really see very often, which now that I’m not drinking, I’m like not going out. I’m not going to like restaurants and bars and stuff. And actually I, yeah. Kind of like that.

Speaker 2 (15:34):

Okay. So you’re not doing, you’re like just kind of removing yourself from that. Also your life is so different. Like you spend so much of your time in mountains and stuff that you’re not even really, like, you’re not socially doing those things much anyway.

Speaker 1 (15:47):

And like, let’s be honest here. Can we be honest here, Suzanne?

Speaker 2 (15:51):

No, this is not the place for

Speaker 1 (15:52):

That. Oh, not a safe space. Got it. Again. I’ll make a note. Not a safe space. I like when all my friends are like, Hey, you wanna drink? And I’ll be like, Nope, I’m not drinking anymore. Yeah. I kinda like that.

Speaker 2 (16:05):

You do. Cuz it feels like rebellious.

Speaker 1 (16:08):

Yeah. It feels rebellious and like better.

Speaker 2 (16:11):

<laugh> you like? So you feel superior.

Speaker 1 (16:14):


Speaker 2 (16:15):

<laugh> I do think that sobriety is an act of rebellion in a world where everyone drinks and like we were taught like growing up, we thought drinking was the rebellious thing to do and like made us cool. It’s totally the opposite now.

Speaker 1 (16:28):

Yeah. Yeah. So like I like being rebellious and it’s rebellious and superior at the same time. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:35):


Speaker 1 (16:36):

Like that? I mean talk about an intoxicating cocktail. <laugh> Rebell and superiority together. Totally give me that drink every day. It

Speaker 2 (16:45):

Is. It is true. You’re like high on life. You don’t need the, you don’t need the ethanol.

Speaker 1 (16:51):

Yeah. And, and like, and I have the willpower and I’ve made the choice to do this. Wait, is that bad? Is that bad? Am I, am I gonna get canceled because of that?

Speaker 2 (17:02):

Just let me just check if you were canceled. Yes. You’ve been canceled. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (17:07):

Okay. Good. Okay. Maybe I’ll get more followers now.

Speaker 2 (17:10):

Does it take willpower for you?

Speaker 1 (17:12):


Speaker 2 (17:13):

No, right.

Speaker 1 (17:14):

No. Like actually I had a moment when I was camping. Um, and we were climbing and I was like, this is normally when I would have a beer. And I was like, I don’t even feel like I want one. Yeah. Like it was, I just don’t really feel like I want it.

Speaker 2 (17:28):

I think a lot of gray area drinkers, which is, I think what we were, I was probably a little bit more, but you were definitely like, you could have one you couldn’t, but then sometimes you would have too much, like you’ve been drunk. You’ve you’ve been hungover. You’ve lost some mornings to hangovers, but yeah. I, I think a

Speaker 1 (17:46):

Lot of one time I was hungover and I ran over, like I was driving back to mom’s house and I ran over a squirrel.

Speaker 2 (17:52):

You did?

Speaker 1 (17:54):

Yeah. And it was just like such a low point.

Speaker 2 (17:56):

That was your rock bottom. That was the squirrel’s rock

Speaker 1 (17:59):

Bottom. Well that definitely the squirrel’s rock bottom <laugh> no, but that was,

Speaker 2 (18:03):

Yeah, that was not good. Speaking of driving the morning after, you know, mom always, and I’m gonna have mom on here, but she, so she was an alcohol counselor. I mean, she’s a therapist who like, I don’t know. She’ll she’ll explain it. So anyone who got pulled over for a DUI in Columbia county where she worked in Wisconsin would have to go see her. And she would like do the assessments about whether or not they needed like more therapy treatment, et cetera. And she said, the majority of the people who came in for assessments were pulled over the morning after. So it’s not like on your way home from the party or on your way home from the bar at night. It’s you still have that alcohol on your system the morning after like on your way to work. How crazy is that?

Speaker 1 (18:49):

Yeah. That’s information I could have used

Speaker 2 (18:51):

<laugh> yeah. And that squirrel could have benefited from

Speaker 1 (18:54):

<laugh>. Well, and that’s, I, I just, I got pulled over the other day. You did for doing 40, 40 and a 30, I mean, come on.

Speaker 2 (19:01):

Oh, bananas.

Speaker 1 (19:03):

Yeah. And I, like, I got pulled over and I’m like, right. You know, I knew I wasn’t speeding that much. And I’m like, I got nothing to worry about. I know like I’m completely sober. Everybody in the car is sober. Uh, like there’s nothing in the car that I’m concerned about. Like I it’s, it’s so liberating not to have to worry about that.

Speaker 2 (19:21):

Totally. I think just on every level, like the clear conscience that you can, you have, like, you’re like, I know, like I’m not gonna send a text message that I don’t mean to send. You know what I mean? I, I’m not gonna say something that I wouldn’t normally say. Cuz I’m the integrity is I think better than any, any glass of wine or whiskey, even though whiskey is so gross or scotch or whatever used to drink.

Speaker 1 (19:49):

No, it’s not.

Speaker 2 (19:51):

Ew. Okay. Well I remember, I remember, I don’t know if you wanna talk about this, but I remember what kind of made you. Do you wanna talk about this in February? What made you decide?

Speaker 1 (20:02):

Not really.

Speaker 2 (20:03):

<laugh> you don’t wanna talk about it? No, we don’t have to say names. Cause it ties back to dad.

Speaker 1 (20:09):

I just had a friend who was drunk around my family and I was looking at things through my daughter’s eyes. June’s eyes who is seven at the time and yeah, I just, the logistics and the particulars of it aren’t that important, but I just mm-hmm, <affirmative> having a drunk friend around my daughter and you know, my entire family and my daughter, I just, I was looking at it through June’s eyes and I was thinking, it felt similar to my upbringing with having a drunk dad around and mm-hmm <affirmative> I just, it felt just bad. It just felt bad. Like on a really personal, I don’t know, just like a visceral level. Yeah. And I was just like, I just don’t want any and like, I didn’t make any proclamation that day. Like I’ll never drink again or anything or I’ll stop drinking, but I just kind of just, there’s still a six pack of beer in my fridge from back then, which I just haven’t cleaned out. Like I just stopped. I was just like, I just don’t want any part of this. It just feels, I mean the best adjective I can use is it just feels icky.

Speaker 2 (21:18):

Yeah. I think especially how we grew up, which our dad ha have a period of drinking a lot and having adults around it was after our parents got divorced and having adults around who drank a lot, it feels as a kid, it feels very unsafe when your parent, especially, or really any adult around you, but definitely your parent when your parent is acting different and not like themselves and like totally different than what you know them to be.

Speaker 1 (21:50):

Well, not only does it feel unsafe, it actually is unsafe.

Speaker 2 (21:55):

Yeah. True. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (21:57):

I mean, <laugh>, it feels unsafe because it is unsafe.

Speaker 2 (22:01):

Yeah. And kids really like, I think, and this is not a judgmental thing for moms to hear. I, I, I really never want this to come across as judgemental, but our kids do, even if we try to act okay. And hide it and anything like that, kids are so vigilant in connecting with their parents that they know, like they know when something’s off, they know when you’ve had a drink or two or three or you’ve been drinking. Like they can just feel it. And I think it’s so interesting. How for you, it wasn’t, you weren’t the one who was drunk because I think if you were the one who was drunk, you wouldn’t have picked up on that because when we’re drunk, everything’s that’s a good point. Everything’s so blurry. Everything’s like you, you don’t have the wherewithal to, to be that, but then for you to be removed from it and to see through your daughter’s eyes, this a drunk adult mm-hmm <affirmative> I think that, that was like, really? That was important.

Speaker 1 (22:56):

Yeah. And here, I just thought, I just was like kind of done with alcohol cuz I got bored with it and I, you know, wanna sort of move on. And now, because I came on this podcast, I’m realizing that there is a deeper reason.

Speaker 2 (23:09):

Yeah. See you’re welcome. It’s like therapy <laugh> no, it is. You thought you thought it was cuz you wanted your boat to go as fast for something <laugh>

Speaker 1 (23:19):


Speaker 2 (23:21):

Turns out it had to do with your childhood and feeling unsafe. Who knew? No, but it’s been interesting cuz it’s not like, you know yeah. You probably didn’t decide then like, oh I see this, this, I see this through my daughter’s eyes. I’m gonna stop drinking. But like looking back, you’re like, yeah, that was the catalyst to be like, it kind of opened your eyes to what, what alcohol is, what it does and what it took from us when we were little.

Speaker 1 (23:48):

Yeah. But I didn’t start a podcast about it.

Speaker 2 (23:50):

You should, the sober ship is sinking. <laugh> <laugh> something about your ship. Holy ship. I’m sober. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (24:01):

Uh, yeah. It’s just, well, I’ve been really about self-improvement lately and, and I mean talk about taking a big thing off the table that you know yeah. That doesn’t help.

Speaker 2 (24:13):

Literally nothing could get nothing gets worse when you stop drinking. I mean, in the short term, yes. Like you might have cravings. You might, your anxiety might go up a little right away before you kind of find your tools to deal with all the shit. Cuz bad feelings and hard feelings and all that stuff does come up. But in the long term, nothing gets worse. If you stop drinking,

Speaker 1 (24:38):

I could see the social stuff, getting worse. I like, I’m not a real social person. I don’t like go out to, to, you know, dinner a lot. I don’t go out to, I don’t go to other people’s houses for dinner. I don’t go out to, I never really went out to bars that much. I wasn’t like a bar guy. But like, if that was your life, I think that would be hard.

Speaker 2 (25:00):

Yeah. I think it is until you find tools to like help manage that. Whether it’s a mock tail or finding other people who,

Speaker 1 (25:08):

A different group of

Speaker 2 (25:09):

Friends. Yeah. Finding other people who don’t prioritize alcohol over connection. I I think until you kind of find your way, it’s, it’s tough. It’s not as tough as a brutal hangover though. No, like it’s just not, it’s just, yeah. There’s some growing pains and trying to figure out what life is gonna look like now. But I think even with your, like you’re not social in the like going out to the restaurant thing, but your whole climbing circle and all of that, that is a very like your social stuff takes place at the cliff. Yeah. Or like post climbing, like you guys would probably have beers and stuff like that. So, so you are kind of having to figure out how to deal with that without that stuff without alcohol.

Speaker 1 (25:46):

Yeah. But then I could be like, nah, I’m not drinking anymore. And everybody’s like, Ugh. <laugh> like, oh I know. Everybody’s like, everybody says like, oh well yeah, you know, I should stop too. Or I’m only having a beer at once, once a week or whatever. So like that power dynamic like is shifted because I feel like the peer pressure goes the other direction then

Speaker 2 (26:09):

It totally does. Like every time I tell somebody I’m sober, they immediately are like thinking about their alcohol intake and then like feeling self-conscious. I mean, that’s not why I say it. I’m not trying to be like, Hey yeah, look at me. This is better. But

Speaker 1 (26:25):

That is why I say it.

Speaker 2 (26:27):

<laugh> that’s why Jay says it. That does just go to show you though, that anyone’s response to your sobriety is 100% about their relationship with alcohol and what they think about it. It’s never about yours. It’s 100% about they immediately then go to, oh shit. Am I drinking too much? Or, oh yeah. I’ve been wanting to cut back too. Or if they’re in denial about their drinking or if they don’t wanna stop, whatever it is, it’s just always about them.

Speaker 1 (26:56):

Good point. Oh

Speaker 2 (26:57):

My God. Well, I’m proud of you. Oh, you know, you know what do mom’s been mom? Hasn’t drank either you guys, this is what, okay. Cuz I had wrestled on a few weeks ago on the podcast. I had my husband on a few weeks ago and now I have my brother and also mom hasn’t been drinking. So none of this did I set out to be like, I’m gonna influence those around me into sobriety.

Speaker 1 (27:22):

Um, you didn’t my drunk friend influenced me into this <laugh> and our dead dad.

Speaker 2 (27:28):

Wow. That just got so dark <laugh> okay. Well still you are on the sober mom life podcast. <laugh> um, but I, I just, I don’t know. I think it’s amazing how far reaching sobriety and it’s influence can go. Like it’s I don’t know. Just when you see it up close and personal, that it’s not boring. That you can have fun that you can live a full even fuller life than when you’re drinking. Like it’s amazing. It it’s hard to then resist at least figure out what it’s all about. And it is cool. Okay.

Speaker 1 (27:59):

I’d like to, oh are we, was that the end? No,

Speaker 2 (28:02):

Not if you have more to say

Speaker 1 (28:04):

I have more to say, because I’d like to say that I’ve added something in the place of drinking and that’s okay. What meditation.

Speaker 2 (28:12):

Mm. Which is so funny. I do not see you as a meditator.

Speaker 1 (28:17):

Oh, I’m so into it. You

Speaker 2 (28:18):

Guys, if Jay can meditate anyone,

Speaker 1 (28:21):

Anyone can

Speaker 2 (28:22):


Speaker 1 (28:24):

No, I, I think it’s a process. It’s very much a process and it’s, it’s a way to help with your thoughts. I mean, drinking, drinking is a way to change or shut down your thoughts. Um, intrusive thoughts. Yeah. Thoughts that are challenging thoughts that you don’t want. Drinking’s a way to shut that off. But meditating is a way to manage them and deal with them. And I’m certainly not an expert meditator. I’m very early in the process. Yeah. But this idea that you think that meditation is like, just clearing your mind and that’s, that’s a misconception. That’s not true. Yeah. Meditation is, is acknowledging your thoughts as they pass through your mind and letting them go. So mm-hmm, <affirmative> you sit there for however long in a, you know, comfortable place and you’ll have thoughts. Thoughts will start running through your, your mind and you acknowledge them and let them pass.

You, acknowledge them and let them pass. And this creates a muscle memory where you start to understand that these thoughts that you have, aren’t real, they’re just thoughts. And you just acknowledge ’em and let ’em go. And this helps in a social situation where normally you’d be drinking and you’d be like, quieting those thoughts by alcohol, like, oh, I said something stupid or whatever, like you would, you’d be numb to that thought. Yeah. But meditation helps you have the skills and the experience to say, you know, oh, I just said something stupid. Okay. That’s a thought, let it go. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and like, then it doesn’t linger and you don’t perseverate on it. And it’s, it’s something that, that really, for me fills the void of, of alcohol.

Speaker 2 (30:02):

Yeah. That’s awesome. It’s so interesting because I think that’s what sobriety is, is kind of showing ourselves that we are strong enough to withstand the feelings and the thoughts that come up and like in meditation, those thoughts aren’t gonna kill you. You don’t have to act on them, you acknowledge and then let it go. And that’s I think, especially for early sobriety, that’s so important that it’s like, you know, when it’s five o’clock and the kids are driving me fucking crazy. That’s okay. <laugh>, it’s nothing to escape from that. They’re gonna drive me crazy. I, I can stay with it or, you know, retreat to my closet and do whatever I need to do cry or just hide for 10 minutes, but it’s okay. Like I don’t have to escape in alcohol then.

Speaker 1 (30:49):

Yeah. And it’s, it’s, it’s mindfulness. It’s understanding how your mind works and really using it in the most efficient way.

Speaker 2 (30:59):


Speaker 1 (31:00):

What really turned me onto meditation is that it’s about effectiveness. It’s about being effectively in your mind. It’s not that new. Well for some people it is, but for me, it’s not that new age kind of stuff. Like, you know, everything’s, everything’s great all the time. It’s the, I know how my mind works. I can work with, with the challenges that I have in my mind and end up in a better place.

Speaker 2 (31:22):

It’s why the military uses it. Right?

Speaker 1 (31:25):

Yeah. Military, uh, business leaders, uh, meditation. Isn’t just for like, you know, people sitting on plush, yogis, plush pillows, and listening to, you know, a

Speaker 2 (31:37):

Sound bath. Yeah. And yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:39):

<laugh> late George Harrison.

Speaker 2 (31:41):

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:43):

This isn’t just the nature of things in the mall.

Speaker 2 (31:46):

<laugh> well, remember that. And then you could press the little sounds. It’ll be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. <laugh> like, <laugh> I, I think that, um, well both you and I have struggled with OCD. I had postpartum OCD and intrusive thoughts. You’ve talked about that, like struggling with OCD. And so this is such a powerful way to when you have intrusive thoughts, it feels so out of control and it feels like you don’t have control of your mind and your mind’s controlling you. And this is such a powerful way to like take that back.

Speaker 1 (32:18):

We’re taking the power back.

Speaker 2 (32:20):

Well, I’m proud of you. I know. I would never say that over on brand new information, but over here, I’ll say it.

Speaker 1 (32:27):

I’m proud of me too.

Speaker 2 (32:28):

<laugh> God, no, you should be. I think that in a culture that is focused on alcohol and focused on convincing us that alcohol is the answer to all of our problems. No matter what they are. I think sobriety is an act of rebellion against that. And that’s something to be proud of. It’s a

Speaker 1 (32:45):

Good job. And you know, this is my like contrarian aspect. Just like, yes. For good. Oh, everybody’s gonna drink now. I’m not <laugh>.

Speaker 2 (32:54):

Yeah. You even hate those like home. Good sign. Well, I do too. Cuz they’re so cheesy. Like be grateful and you’re like, don’t fuck. Don’t tell me what to do. Don’t tell me I’m just gonna not be grateful because you told me to be grateful. <laugh> take that sign.

Speaker 1 (33:09):

I, I see somebody at the store and they’re like, have a good day. I’m like, don’t tell me what to do. <laugh>

Speaker 2 (33:14):

Yeah. You’re like, no, you have a good day. They’re like, thanks. <laugh> they’re like, no. Yeah. This is your contrarian personality for good. For

Speaker 1 (33:24):

Good. That’s good for good. Yeah. I’m proud of you for, for having a sober podcast. Thanks. I dunno. I’m trying. I don’t like I’m proud of you for stuff.

Speaker 2 (33:32):

Yeah. Okay. Thanks. You did it. You said that good job. That would be the hardest thing you’ll have to do.

Speaker 1 (33:39):

<laugh> I, I have fulfilled my contractual duty of coming on the podcast to say that I’m proud of you.

Speaker 2 (33:44):

That’s right. And if you guys like this banter, there’s a lot more over on brand new information. There’s a lot more,

Speaker 1 (33:51):

More than there should be

Speaker 2 (33:53):

More than necessary. <laugh>

Speaker 1 (33:56):

Now seriously, Suzanne that’s you know. Good job.

Speaker 2 (34:00):

Thanks Jay. <laugh> thanks. Okay. Well I love Mo love Mo. Bye

Speaker 1 (34:05):


Speaker 2 (34:10):

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the sober mom life. If you loved it, please rate and review it wherever you listen. Five stars is amazing. Also follow me on Instagram at the sober mom life. Okay. I’ll see you next week. I’m gonna go reheat my coffee. Bye.

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